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1. The Republic
$19.95
2. The Laws
$8.00
3. Apology: On the Death of Socrates
$23.50
4. Plato: Crito (BCP Greek Texts)
$9.99
5. Introduction to the Philosophy
$7.99
6. The Sophist
$5.90
7. Plato and a Platypus Walk into
$8.12
8. Apology, Crito and Phaedo of Socrates
$7.94
9. Plato: Republic
$5.48
10. The Republic (Penguin Classics)
11. Alcibiades II
$39.14
12. Plato Complete Works
 
$13.50
13. The Republic Of Plato: Second
$22.43
14. Ion
$4.49
15. Five Dialogues
$3.40
16. Great Dialogues of Plato
$22.25
17. Euthyphro
$6.15
18. Republic (Oxford World's Classics)
$4.00
19. Republic
$3.94
20. The Symposium (Penguin Classics)

1. The Republic
by Plato
Kindle Edition: Pages (2009-10-04)
list price: US$1.99
Asin: B002RKSTWM
Average Customer Review: 3.0 out of 5 stars
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Editorial Review

Product Description
This book was converted from its physical edition to the digital format by a community of volunteers. You may find it for free on the web. Purchase of the Kindle edition includes wireless delivery. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (4)

4-0 out of 5 stars Relevant Chapters
I needed this book for a Philosophy Class, it helped me out, I thought I would help you all out and provide some locations to jump to:
Book I: 3954
Book II: 4707
Book III: 5335
Book IV: 6152
V: 6855
VI: 7712
VII: 8402
VIII: 9057
IX: 9752
X: 10332

Hope this helps you!

3-0 out of 5 stars 3948 to read the actual book.
You get what you pay for I suppose.Starts with a very long introduction or maybe you would call it a lecture about the book and Plato.If you want to just read the book itself you need to jump all the way to location 3948.Really needs at least a table of contents with 2 entries; one for the intro and one for the actual start of the book.

4-0 out of 5 stars Basic philosophy
An ancient book, whose communications are so often cited, and whose timeless phrases have entered into our English language, is amazingly current. So many modern profound philosophical insights and conundrums are thus shown to be timeless, even when the utopia's solutions appear simplistic, even immoral.

1-0 out of 5 stars Buy the Indexed version - too tough to navigate this one
The only way to navigate this version of the Kindle edition of Plato's Republic is by PAGING through it or searching for keywords you already know.Get the mobile version instead.It has a table of contents with working links. ... Read more


2. The Laws
by Plato
Paperback: 314 Pages (2010-07-22)
list price: US$19.95 -- used & new: US$19.95
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 1453710779
Average Customer Review: 4.0 out of 5 stars
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Editorial Review

Product Description
"The Laws", Plato's most lengthy dialogue, has longbeen regarded as the most comprehensive explanation of the possible consequences of a practical application of his philosophy.We might expect the first question Plato ponders to be "What is Law?"Instead, the question posed is "Who is given the credit for laying down your laws?"We are privy to an interaction between a powerfulstatesman and an Athenian philosopher on theisland of Crete.We watch as a plan for a new political order is worked out that embodiesmany of the issues that we still struggle withtoday, such as the status of women, the statusof homosexuals, the family, criminal law, andthe role of religion in a healthy society.We at Timeless Classic Books hope that you enjoy this ancient thought-provoking story that may change the way you think about modern day issues.(Timeless Classic Books) ... Read more

Customer Reviews (1)

4-0 out of 5 stars Plato As Law Giver
I read this book as part of my research into Plato himself.

It's hard for me to see how relevant a book like this is today.Plato's world was very different than today.People owned slaves, there was no internet or mass communications, Christianity didn't even exist yet, etc..

However it did provide some of the insights I was looking for about Plato himself.

Plato's writings have a smooth quality.St. Augustine called Plato's philosophy very 'clear'.Reading his works can almost be like a sort of religious experience since he often talks about the various mythological gods and God Himself.A book carries the spirit of the author I guess.

Plato believed in reincarnation and the law of karma.For example he felt that the death penalty is a blessing in disguise for incorrigible criminals since it prevents them from contaminating their souls with even more evil.

I feel this book shows the influence of two things that were very important for Plato;his belief in Atlantis and the books in the old testament of the bible that talk about the details of those laws that were given from on high.These two things were always there deep in his thoughts.

Atlantis was a utopian society at first and it seems that for all of his life Plato was trying to recreate this ideal society.But I doubt that he could have imagined the information that came out in the 1900s from the great Edgar Cayce (Osiris).Sometimes when people see flying saucers those are our ancestors from Atlantis travelling through time.

It is not a coincidence that fate chose Plato to preserve the legend of Atlantis for future generations. He was there on Atlantis himself at the very beginning.

Interestingly the author of this translation doesn't agree that The Laws shows how Plato became more realistic when he realized that the idealistic society described in The Republic could never become a reality.That is a common theory that many people believe.

Rather he feels Plato would have known that The Republic could never beome a reality.

I think the next thing I'll read about Plato is a biography as part of my ongoing research.

Jeff Marzano

Fulcanelli: Master Alchemist: Le Mystere des Cathedrales, Esoteric Intrepretation of the Hermetic Symbols of The Great Work (Le Mystere Des Cathedrales ... of the Hermetic Symbols of Great Work)

The Mystery of the Crystal Skulls: Unlocking the Secrets of the Past, Present, and Future

Ufo...Contact from Planet Iarga

The Giza Power Plant : Technologies of Ancient Egypt

The Secret Teachings of All Ages (Reader's Edition)

Initiation

Initiation in the Great Pyramid (Astara's Library of Mystical Classics)

Edgar Cayce's Story of the Old Testament From the Birth of Souls to the Death of Moses

Forbidden History: Prehistoric Technologies, Extraterrestrial Intervention, and the Suppressed Origins of Civilization

Edgar Cayce's Atlantis and Lemuria: The Lost Civilizations in the Light of Modern Discoveries
... Read more


3. Apology: On the Death of Socrates
by Plato
Paperback: 40 Pages (2010-03-16)
list price: US$8.00 -- used & new: US$8.00
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 1449552846
Average Customer Review: 4.0 out of 5 stars
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Editorial Review

Product Description
ApologyOn the death of Socrates ... Read more

Customer Reviews (3)

4-0 out of 5 stars Candid, aggressive, and modern defense for Socrates' philosophy
The "Apology" is ancandid, aggressive, and modern defense for Socrates' philosophy, vs. the intolerance of the Athens, that has many similarities in modern persecution on morally corrupt grounds. The Phaedo, a sad effort in comparison, as Socrates defends a rather unimpressive argument for the immortality of the soul, immediately prior to his own demise by hemlock. The reader does an excellent job on both counts.

3-0 out of 5 stars Strange that the translator is not mentioned anywhere...
This appears to be the Jowett translation. Why should the potential buyer not be provided with that information? It is truly weird to offer a translation without letting anyone know where it came from. Why hide it? It raises my suspicions when the origin of the text is withheld. It seems Amazon is awash with unattributed texts. I realize that many of these texts are now in the public domain--but then all the more reason to be honest. The cover photograph is appealing, but the font for the body of the text is a typewriter font--why?

5-0 out of 5 stars Great Work but Not the Best Edition
"Apology" is Plato's least philosophical and most unrepresentative work but arguably his most important and is among many readers' favorites, including mine. However, the fact that it is widely anthologized -- e.g., in The Trial and Death of Socrates -- makes it hard to justify a standalone, but some may be taken by the translation.

The work purports to be Socrates' self-defense at his trial. It is historically priceless if so, as it gives his last public statements and some background about his life and the lead up to the trial. Even if not, it is of immense worth as a passionate, sound defense of individualism and free speech; its timeless evocation of these all-important concepts is forever associated with Socrates and the main reason he has been immortalized. The work also piercingly examines the often vast law/conscience gap and is thus an early higher law document. Finally, it is a sort of mini-dialogue in itself touching on and in several ways tying up classic Socrates/Plato themes like the nature of piety and goodness, responsibility toward the gods and the state, interpersonal relations, and life vs. death issues. It sums up Socrates and perhaps Plato better than any other work.

The ever-important translation issue must also be kept in mind. It goes without saying that anyone who cares about intellectual issues, especially applied ones, must know Plato, as should anyone who wants to be even basically well-read. However, this is far easier said than done for most; he is so different from what now passes for literature, to say nothing of pop culture, that he is virtually inaccessible to general readers. Yet the importance of persevering cannot be overemphasized; the payoff is well worth the effort. As nearly always in such cases, reading him becomes far easier after the initial difficulty; no attentive reader will ever think Plato easy reading, but he is utterly absorbing once we get used to his style. He has a near-poetic beauty that all agree has never even been remotely approached in philosophy, and such mesmerizing prose is rare in any genre. His dialogues are an incredible form at once intellectually and aesthetically pleasing - an inspired combination that has perhaps never been bettered; many have appropriated it, but none have matched it. All this means that picking the right translation is probably more important with Plato than any other writer. For the average reader, the more recent, the better is generally true, but older translations like W. H. D. Rouse's and Benjamin Jowett's are still very accessible. The important thing is to read Plato in some form, and those who happen on a translation that does not work for them should keep trying until their mind opens in a truly new way - and once done, it will never close again. ... Read more


4. Plato: Crito (BCP Greek Texts)
by C. Emlyn Jones
Paperback: 116 Pages (2010-07-15)
list price: US$23.50 -- used & new: US$23.50
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 1853994693
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Editorial Review

Product Description
Plato's Socrates, in prison and being urged to flee execution, raises in acute form, and for the first time in European thought, a central question: is it right to disobey the state? Socrates' controversial answer in "Crito" has generated much contemporary literature, but no English commentary of the Greek text for seventy-five years. This new edition aims to provide an up-to-date literary and philosophical analysis suitable for a wide range of readers, including those with post-beginners Greek. It represents an ideal introduction, not only to the social and philosophical world of Classical Greece, but also to the personality of one of its greatest thinkers. ... Read more


5. Introduction to the Philosophy and Writings of Plato
by Thomas Taylor
Paperback: 66 Pages (2010-07-06)
list price: US$9.99 -- used & new: US$9.99
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: B003VNKOUE
Average Customer Review: 1.0 out of 5 stars
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Editorial Review

Product Description
Introduction to the Philosophy and Writings of Plato is presented here in a high quality paperback edition. This popular classic work by Thomas Taylor is in the English language. If you enjoy the works of Thomas Taylor then we highly recommend this publication for your book collection. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (1)

1-0 out of 5 stars Wonderful book
My son needed this book for a paper for school and it worked great for him.Very informative!!!!! ... Read more


6. The Sophist
by Plato
Paperback: 104 Pages (2010-05-11)
list price: US$7.99 -- used & new: US$7.99
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 1452863539
Average Customer Review: 5.0 out of 5 stars
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Editorial Review

Product Description
The Sophist is one of the late Dialogues of Plato. This dialogue takes place a day after Plato's Theaetetus, and aims at defining the Sophist. The participants are Socrates, who plays a minor role, the highly promising young student Theaetetus, and a Visitor from Elea, who plays the major role in the conversation. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (1)

5-0 out of 5 stars Sophist
Sophist by Plato. Published by MobileReference (mobi).


Plato's work on logos in the closing sections of Sophist, as well as his work on the probems of not-being are amongst the greatest pieces of analysis in the history of philosophy. ... Read more


7. Plato and a Platypus Walk into a Bar . . .: Understanding Philosophy Through Jokes
by Thomas Cathcart, Daniel Klein
Paperback: 215 Pages (2008-06-24)
list price: US$13.00 -- used & new: US$5.90
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 0143113879
Average Customer Review: 4.0 out of 5 stars
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Editorial Review

Product Description
This New York Times bestseller is the hilarious philosophy course everyone wishes they’d had in school

Outrageously funny, Plato and a Platypus Walk into a Bar . . . has been a breakout bestseller ever since authors—and born vaudevillians—Thomas Cathcart and Daniel Klein did their schtick on NPR’s Weekend Edition. Lively, original, and powerfully informative, Plato and a Platypus Walk Into a Bar . . . is a not-so-reverent crash course through the great philosophical thinkers and traditions, from Existentialism (What do Hegel and Bette Midler have in common?) to Logic (Sherlock Holmes never deduced anything). Philosophy 101 for those who like to take the heavy stuff lightly, this is a joy to read—and finally, it all makes sense! ... Read more

Customer Reviews (177)

5-0 out of 5 stars Fun and educational - the best of both worlds.
As someone who has only recently decided to dip a toe into the waters of philosophy, this book was an excellent starting point.Certainly not the same as snuggling up with a copy of Plato's Republic, but educational nonetheless.And there's the added bonus of significant entertainment value - something that's lacking in some of the deeper philosophical texts.Regardless, even if you get nothing else out of it, you'll come away with a new joke or two to tell at your next wine tasting or staff meeting.I would highly recommend this book!

3-0 out of 5 stars philosophy for fun
I liked this book more for the humor than the philosophy.It does a fair job of tying the two together but is not great at either one.It would be good for somone casually interested in philosophy who wants to be entertained along the way.I liked "The Story of Philosophy"by Bryan Magee much better for an easy to follow and well illustrated overview of philosophy.

3-0 out of 5 stars It beats sitting through a philosophy class.
This small volume purports to explain concepts of philosophy by way of jokes. I would say, rather, that it explains concepts of philosophy and THEN tells the reader jokes that relate to those concepts in order to give a clearer understanding of them. In that regard it largely succeeds, at least for as long as the book is open. Cathcart and Klein do a good job of both explaining philosophy and making their readers laugh at it. My only real complaint is that many of the jokes in the book are rather old and seem to be copied verbatim from other sources. Granted that there are only so many jokes, but they could have at least tried to be a bit more original. Also, while I bought the book cheap after it had been remaindered, the cover price of $18.95 is quite steep for a 200-page book of limited re-readability.

5-0 out of 5 stars Open Minded
This book was a joy to read because of the philosophical understanding to the humorous jokes. I would strongly recommend this book to any reader who is prepared to understand their world and who has an open mind. If you would like to understand more than your everyday routine and same chores and take a step out of your comfort zone then you should read this. This book is a guide to better understand how and why and where are we as people. The thing I enjoyed the most was the jokes that closely correspond with the philosophical meaning.

5-0 out of 5 stars Jokes are philosophical
This small book is like C4 plastic explosive.It packs a wallop.It should be required reading for all university undergrads. ... Read more


8. Apology, Crito and Phaedo of Socrates (Classic Reprint)
by Plato Plato
Paperback: 178 Pages (2010-04-19)
list price: US$8.12 -- used & new: US$8.12
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 1440093121
Average Customer Review: 5.0 out of 5 stars
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Product Description
THE APOLOGY OF SOORATES. I KNOW not, 0 Athenians I how far you have been influenced by my accusers: for my part, in Ijstening to them I almost forgot myself, so plausible were their arguments: however, so to speak, they have said nothing true. But of the many falsehoods which they uttered I wondered at one of them especiailly, that in which -they said that you ought to be on your guard lest you should be deceived by'me, as being eloquent in speech. For tha.t ,they a.re not ashamedof being forthwith convicted by me in fact, when I shall show that I am not by any means eloquent, this seemed. to me the most shameless thing in them, unless indeed they caJl him. eloquent who sp...e...a....k.. --s. the truth. For, if they mean ~ . this, then I ivould allow that I am an orator! but not after their faihlon:" for-ihei;iS" i-a&~~-ha.~e said nothing true; but from me you shall h~ the whole truth. Not indeed, Athenians, argumentS highly wrought, as theirs were, with choice phr

Table of Contents

OONTENTS; 1'1 ??; INTRODUCTION , ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? vii; THE - POLOGY OF SOCRATES ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ' 18; n"'TBODUorION 'rO TD CRrro ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 49; CRITO; OR, THE DUTY OF A CITIZEN ? ? ? 51; INTBODUcmON TO TlIE Paamo ? ? ? 70; PH £DO ; OR, THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL 78

About the Publisher

Forgotten Books is a publisher of historical writings, such as: Philosophy, Classics, Science, Religion, History, Folklore and Mythology.

Forgotten Books' Classic Reprint Series utilizes the latest technology to regenerate facsimiles of historically important writings. Careful attention has been made to accurately preserve the original format of each page whilst digitally enhancing the difficult to read text. Read books online for free at www.forgottenbooks.org ... Read more

Customer Reviews (1)

5-0 out of 5 stars Great Collection
This magnificent compilation has three Plato writings:"Apology," "Crito," and "Phaedo." Though apparently early works and not as complex or philosophically influential as later ones, they are immensely important in portraying Socrates' trial and death. They are our clearest picture of the historical Socrates and would be invaluable for this alone. Indeed, I have read hundreds - perhaps thousands - of books, and this is one of my ten or so favorites, mostly because of how moving the depiction of the great man's last days is. The story of Socrates' Apology and last moments is part of world literature's very fabric, an immortal part of Western cultural heritage. Anyone who wants to learn about Socrates should start here. However, the works have great value even aside from this; a few have indeed questioned their historical veracity. This does not affect their philosophical, literary, and political worth, which is of the highest, making the book doubly essential.

"Apology" is Plato's least philosophical and most unrepresentative work but arguably his most important and is among many readers' favorites, including mine. The book's title is misleading in that this is prose rather than dialogue; it purports to be Socrates' self-defense at his trial. It is historically priceless if so, as it gives his last public statements and some background about his life and the lead up to the trial. Even if not, it is of immense worth as a passionate, sound defense of individualism and free speech; its timeless evocation of these all-important concepts is forever associated with Socrates and the main reason he has been immortalized. The work also piercingly examines the often vast law/conscience gap and is thus an early higher law document. Finally, it is a sort of mini-dialogue in itself touching on and in several ways tying up classic Socrates/Plato themes like the nature of piety and goodness, responsibility toward the gods and the state, interpersonal relations, and life vs. death issues. It sums up Socrates and perhaps Plato better than any other work.

"Crito" is a possibly partly historical account of the title character visiting Socrates in jail to inform him that he is able to escape via bribe; Socrates famously says that he accepts his sentence and argues down contrary pleas. This gives incredible potential insight into Socrates, in many ways telling us more about his character and thought than a full biography ever could. Again, though, it transcends this philosophically and otherwise and is particularly relevant politically. It also examines the law/conscience gap and gives further background on Socrates but is notable above all as a very early example of the social contract theory of government. This is an astonishing example of how advanced Plato was, as the theory is generally considered to have been founded by Thomas Hobbes nearly a millennium later. Even more amazingly, it is put forth more clearly and persuasively here than perhaps anywhere else, making the dialogue essential for anyone interested in political theory.

"Phaedo" ostensibly details Socrates' last moments, including his last look at his wife and child, his last dialogue, his last words to friends, and his actual death. A large part of Socrates' image comes from this, and its potential historical value is inconceivable, though its historicity can easily be doubted since the work itself strongly suggests that Plato was not there. Even so, it is likely accurate in regard to the things that really matter and certainly a fine account of how it very well could have been. It is extremely moving; shot through with pathos, it is one of the most affecting things I have ever read. One can surely not read it without being overcome by emotion; I can hardly even think of it without misty eyes. Anyone who respects and admires this central Western civilization figure will be profoundly touched; his famous last words seem comic out of context but are very much otherwise here, telling us much about Socrates and moving us yet further. This would be one of the greatest works of all-time if it had no other aspect, but it is also a fine dialogue appropriately dealing mostly with death. Plato examines perennial questions like the soul's immortality and metempsychosis very thoroughly and thought-provokingly, and the conclusion - unsurprisingly, given the circumstances - has uncharacteristic certainty. It may not convince our cynical, empiricist, science-loving, twentieth century-surviving age, but the argument is certainly well-made and in many ways admirable. The dialogue touches on other important subjects also and is generally seen as the culmination of Plato's early, Socrates-centered thought.

It is important to realize that these four works were not originally published together, but the trial and death connection means they are often collected. There are many such editions, but this is among the least expensive and one of the most widely available, making it ideal for most. That said, some editions - e.g., Dover's Trial and Death of Socrates, which is even cheaper - also have "Euthyphro." The ever-important translation issue must also be kept in mind. It goes without saying that anyone who cares about intellectual issues, especially applied ones, must know Plato, as should anyone who wants to be even basically well-read. However, this is far easier said than done for most; he is so different from what now passes for literature, to say nothing of pop culture, that he is virtually inaccessible to general readers. Yet the importance of persevering cannot be overemphasized; the payoff is well worth the effort. As nearly always in such cases, reading him becomes far easier after the initial difficulty; no attentive reader will ever think Plato easy reading, but he is utterly absorbing once we get used to his style. He has a near-poetic beauty that all agree has never even been remotely approached in philosophy, and such mesmerizing prose is rare in any genre. His dialogues are an incredible form at once intellectually and aesthetically pleasing - an inspired combination that has perhaps never been bettered; many have appropriated it, but none have matched it. All this means that picking the right translation is probably more important with Plato than any other writer. For the average reader, the more recent, the better is generally true, though older translations like W. H. D. Rouse's and Benjamin Jowett's are still very accessible. The important thing is to read Plato in some form, and those who happen on a translation that does not work for them should keep trying until their mind opens in a truly new way - and once done, it will never close again.

All told, though this edition is not the best for all, anyone wanting an inexpensive Plato/Socrates primer could hardly do better.
... Read more


9. Plato: Republic
by Plato, G. M. A. Grube, C. D. C. Reeve
Paperback: 320 Pages (1992-11)
list price: US$9.95 -- used & new: US$7.94
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 0872201368
Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars
Canada | United Kingdom | Germany | France | Japan
Editorial Review

Product Description
Since its publication in 1974, scholars throughout the humanities have adopted G M A Grube's masterful translation of the Republic as the edition of choice for their study and teaching of Plato's most influential work. In this brilliant revision, C D C Reeve furthers Grube's success both in preserving the subtlety of Plato's philosophical argument and in rendering the dialogue in lively, fluent English, that remains faithful to the original Greek. This revision includes a new introduction, index, and bibliography by Reeve. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (28)

4-0 out of 5 stars The Foundation of Western Civilization, good or bad
When I was 23 years old I read Plato's Republic. I went in, looking to see what all the fuss was about, and to take away what I could. If you ever get the chance to read it, you'll see what the fuss is about. It's funny to think about, but so much of Western Civilization is the result of ideas found in this book. It seems like, because Plato was the first to idealize politics, we decided to base an entire Civilization around one man's ideas. Of course I'm exaggerating, but as I read the book I was struck by how many of Plato's ideas had been tried by so many people that came after him, most of them failures.

It's not so much that Plato had so many terrible ideas, which we are still plagued with today, it's that he idealized the potential of the state to be a transformative good. So many of his ideals are admirable, but so much of his ability to see the reality of the human experience was flawed. I think he truly believed that nobody must have understood what he was saying. There is definitely a persecuted-complex underlying the Republic; he must have been frustrated by the lack of progress in Athens,given that both prevalent forms of government in his day were tried out (oligarchy and democracy). Plato repeatedly attempts to rework human nature in the Republic, but to no avail. So many times, as I read the book, I got the sense that he was saying, "Our city will be perfect, but now we just need perfect people to make it work". Throughout the book he consistently underestimates humanity's desires and emotions, it's as if he assumed human beings were all at once incredibly stupid and devilishly sly.

Ultimately I think Plato struck upon the true problem in humanity several times in his dialogues, but neglected to see it as his main problem. So much of Western Civilization operates in the same way. We are all, truly, Platonists. Westerners look at the world, and if they are astute enough to understand it's problems, are doubly quick to propose some sort of policy change that will fix it. Plato basically admits, near the end of his first discourse on the ideal city, that justice can only be found when all the citizens of the city decide to treat one another justly (his definition is that they stick to their proper roles). Plato wasn't the first person to come up with the idea to enforce righteousness on people, but he was the first to do it for the sake of utility and progress. The Western world has been living out his frustrations ever since. You should read this book, if only to find out how.

4-0 out of 5 stars philosophy of politics, virtue, and self
I got this book for my IB extended essay in Philosophy. Well, I gave it 4 stars, because I really like the content of the book. It is very useful, and it helps me a lot in my essay.
However, there are some marks and notes in the book, which distract me a lot.
Overall, I am happy, for I have bought this book.

5-0 out of 5 stars PLATO REPUBLIC(translated by G.M.A. Grube)
This publication is informative and thought provoking.The translation is smooth, understndable and easy to follow.I highly recommend it.

5-0 out of 5 stars Reason allows us to live for something
I read G. M. A. Grubb's translation of Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found Grubb's translation to be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.
Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

5-0 out of 5 stars Reason allows us to live for something
I read G. M. A. Grubb's translation of Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found Grubb's translation to be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.
Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.
... Read more


10. The Republic (Penguin Classics)
by Plato
Paperback: 480 Pages (2007-09-14)
list price: US$10.00 -- used & new: US$5.48
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 0140455116
Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars
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Product Description
Plato's "Republic" is widely acknowledged as the cornerstone of Western philosophy. Presented in the form of a dialogue between Socrates and three different interlocutors, it is an enquiry into the notion of a perfect community and the ideal individual within it. During the conversation other questions are raised: what is goodness; what is reality; what is knowledge? "The Republic" also addresses the purpose of education and the role of both women and men as 'guardians' of the people. With remarkable lucidity and deft use of allegory, Plato arrives at a depiction of a state bound by harmony and ruled by 'philosopher kings'. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (42)

4-0 out of 5 stars Dialogue
The dialogue in the book provides an excellent forum for introspection into one's own political and moralistic values. A great read that keeps you thinking...

5-0 out of 5 stars Essential
Plato's Republic may be the most influential book ever; its importance is simply impossible to exaggerate. Its impact on philosophy, ethics, science, politics, and almost everything else is incalculable. It is in a very real sense the foundation on which Western society rests; countless later writings or actions would have been extremely unlikely or impossible without it. The work is famously touted as Plato's ideal state vision, and every subsequent look at this all-important question has had to deal with it. Its scope is so wide that people of every persuasion have taken something from it, and negative reactions have in many ways been at least as important as positive. Plato's thoughts here are so far-reaching that they have vital practical importance even now, and his sweeping historical and philosophical overview is the ideal place to start exploring the subject. However, saying The Republic is about this only sells it rather short; some have indeed suggested that this is only a metaphor for the soul's purification. The book in fact explores nearly every subject of importance:the nature of justice, the difference between good and evil and how to aim for the former, the question of the soul's immortality, etc. Plato unfortunately has a reputation as hopelessly idealistic and/or impenetrable, but this is highly unfortunate because The Republic specifically goes to pains to make all this practically applicable. For further proof, we need only look at its comments on many issues - not least class and gender - that seem to have become preeminent only very recently. Like all geniuses, Plato both epitomized and was far ahead of his era; it is impossible to think of Greece without him, yet in some ways - e.g., female equality - we still have not caught up.

It goes without saying that anyone interested in any of these issues must know The Republic. We can without hyperbole go further by saying anyone who cares about intellectual issues, especially applied ones, must also, as should anyone who wants to be even basically well-read. However, this is far easier said than done for most; Plato is so different from what now passes for literature, to say nothing of pop culture, that he is virtually inaccessible to general readers. Yet the importance of persevering cannot be overemphasized; the payoff is well worth the effort. As nearly always in such cases, reading him becomes far easier after the initial difficulty; no attentive reader will ever think Plato easy reading, but he is utterly absorbing once we get used to his style. He has a near-poetic beauty that all agree has never even been remotely approached in philosophy, and such mesmerizing prose is rare in any genre. His dialogues are an incredible form at once intellectually and aesthetically pleasing - an inspired combination that has perhaps never been bettered; many have appropriated it, but none have matched it. All this means that picking the right translation is probably more important with Plato than any other writer. For the average reader, the more recent, the better is generally true, though older versions like W. H. D. Rouse's and Benjamin Jowett's are still very accessible. The important thing is to read The Republic in some form, and those who happen on a translation that does not work for them should keep trying until their mind opens in a truly new way - and once done, it will never close again.

5-0 out of 5 stars Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

5-0 out of 5 stars The cornerstone of modern philosophy
"The Republic" is an insightful look into human nature and the nature of state. This book is truly Plato's best work. This edition contains great annotations and explinations, and is a very lucid and accessible translation. This book is absolutely essential to understand Western philosophy.

4-0 out of 5 stars The Rhetoric
Most people know this book by title, not by content. I must admit reading this book is not for the faint at heart. Rhetorics will be thrown in your face as if it is common language and some sense of historical background on the Greeks may help as well.

But this shouldn't hold you back from reading this classic piece, all 450 pages of it. It is not so much the result of all thinking, but the process of thinking itself which makes this a great book. Known as one of the greatest Greek philosiphers of all-time you can get a taste of his way of thinking and the time he was living in.

If you have any interest in history and philosophy you'll love this book. ... Read more


11. Alcibiades II
by Plato
Kindle Edition: Pages (2010-01-30)
list price: US$0.99
Asin: B0036MCUOS
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The Second Alcibiades or Alcibiades II is a dialogue ascribed to Plato, featuring Alcibiadesconversing with Socrates, but there is dispute amongst scholars about the text's authenticity. If the dialogue is not authentic, it is probably written within a century or two of Plato's other works. -- from Wikipedia ... Read more


12. Plato Complete Works
by Plato, John M. Cooper, D. S. Hutchinson
Hardcover: 1808 Pages (1997-05-01)
list price: US$54.00 -- used & new: US$39.14
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 0872203492
Average Customer Review: 5.0 out of 5 stars
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Editorial Review

Product Description
Outstanding translations by leading contemporary scholars -- many commissioned especially for this volume -- are presented here in the first single edition to include the entire surviving corpus of works attributed to Plato in antiquity. In his introductory essay, John Cooper explains the presentation of these works, discusses questions concerning the chronology of their composition, comments on the dialogue form in which Plato wrote, and offers guidance on approaching the reading and study of Plato's works. Also included are concise introductions to each translation, meticulous annotation designed to serve both scholar and general reader, and a comprehensive index. This handsome volume offers fine paper and a high-quality Smyth-sewn cloth binding in a sturdy elegant edition. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (48)

5-0 out of 5 stars It was new and it came quick
ya the title explains it. I thought about getting the book from a store, but with Amazon Prime i got the two day shipping which ended up being one day shipping so it was really cool. The book was in brand new condition; it had the dust cover and everything.

5-0 out of 5 stars Plato review
I purchased this book to do independent study on Plato. I was previously unaware that so much was attributed to him. The book includes some works which scholars believe not to be by him put are Platonic in the style of writing. Of special interest to me is the Theaetetus which is considered to be the founding document on epistemology andthe theory of knowledge. Each dialogue has a foreword describing the immediate scene and surrounding context. Any serious academic student of philosophy needs to have this book.

5-0 out of 5 stars Plato at his readable best
Very readable and for most people who think that they dislike philosophy, this is an enjoyable read. You may not want to put it down. Good scholarship. This work prompts a lot of pondering and rumination on the simplest yet most profound subjects. To study the birth of systematic universals is both a privilege and a wonder.

5-0 out of 5 stars Review of Plato: Complete Works
This collection of Plato is as complete as possible. If anything, it contains a host of dialogues that are clearly not Plato's, and deserve to be excluded.

The translations are all readable, though they admittedly vary in style and quality. I have no experience with the Greek text, so I continue with personal bias... Many of the translations present a Plato who speaks very, very careful, using complex syntax, sparing to "that which is" or "and so it must be." Other translations, to my preference, understand the beauty of brevity. Again, the former sort my be more "authentically" Platonic. In review, though, its important to note that none of the translations are incomprehensible.

Footnotes. Not endnotes. Zeus be praised.

The introductions are never skimpy. They almost always present the content of the dialogue and its historical context, especially in the case of spurious works. I do have one criticism: there is only a single, two-page introduction before both the Republic and the Laws. I feel it would have been much more effective to present an introduction before each and every book of these works, all of which contain enough cultural content to fill out a full-page overview.

My biggest criticism is with the organization of this work. The editor makes almost no effort to organize the dialogues, leaving them in the original ordering of Thrasyllus. This preserves several of the ancient tetralogies (see the book's introduction), but the editor doesn't explain any of these tetralogies. The editor feels that dating and organizing Plato's works chronology is too sketchy, and so makes little effort in this regard.

Aside from an introduction to Thrasyllus and a brief mention of his tetralogical system, the introduction leaves much to be desired. As I said, there is no effort to give the works chronological perspective. There is a short introduction regarding the traditional thematic and literary focii of the dialogues, helping to introduce the reader to the writing itself. The biography of Plato is too brief.

Review of Criticisms:

Mind you, all of these criticisms stem from personal bias, and I do not level them in order to encourage the purchase of another collection. This collection is excellent.

1. Some of the translations feel too wordy to be truly enjoyable; they are readable and informative, but hardly a pleasure to read.

2. Each book to the Republic and the Laws deserves its own introduction.

3. The editor makes no effort to organize the dialogues chronologically, and does little to explain the tetralogies of Thrasyllus.

4. There is insufficient biological information in the introduction.

5-0 out of 5 stars It pleases the gods
The book is in pristine condition and arrived as timely as could be expected, considering the location of the shipper. Now I am actually capable of DOING my philosophy homework! Thanks! ... Read more


13. The Republic Of Plato: Second Edition
by Plato
 Paperback: 512 Pages (1991-10-03)
list price: US$22.95 -- used & new: US$13.50
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 0465069347
Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars
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Editorial Review

Product Description
Long regarded as the most accurate rendering of Plato's Republic that has yet been published, this widely acclaimed work is the first strictly literal translation of a timeless classic. This second edition includes a new introduction by Professor Bloom, whose careful translation and interpretation of The Republic was first published in 1968. In addition to the correct text itself there is also a rich and valuable essay--as well as indexes and a glossary of terms--which will better enable the readerto approach the heart of Plato's intention. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (41)

4-0 out of 5 stars The Injustice of Not Reading
Plato's Republic is a book that shouldn't be taken lightly because if your not paying careful attention, you will get lost. The book at its' core is the answer to one of the most basic questions of human society: What is Justice? In this book, several Ancient Greek philosophers give it their best shot...with let's just say interesting results. Sure there are other intriguing discussions about forms of governance and class systems and structures, but everything leads back to the core of justice. Although this translation is quite good, I could've honestly done without the interpretive essay that makes up the books size. Inside this book are various ideas of justice, each both plausible on some level, but flawed in other aspects such is the nature of justice or any other human creation. This book should be read for its' great value in intellectual stimulation because not everything in life is concrete in form and black and white. Even though justice is subjective, not reading this book would be injustice.

5-0 out of 5 stars Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class. I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below. I found G. M. A. Grubb's translation to be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society. "Reason allows us to live for something." Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals. Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women. The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups. Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom. Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit. Artisans have moderation of appetites. Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy. The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control. The ruler should think logically not emotionally. In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government. The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end. Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage. I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously. Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city. Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes. Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as Artisans This division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state. In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice. With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage. What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage. It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people. This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage. Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN. In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined. Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people. Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous. First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved. Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous. If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant. Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war. Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well. Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate. Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors. Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices. Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage. Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure. Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

2-0 out of 5 stars Great book, but the Kindle version is horrible
I have the 2nd edition in both book and Kindle form.I give the book form 5 stars; the Kindle version is horrible.You won't see this from the sample, but the index is completely useless - its simply a list of words with no hyperlinks.Additionally, none of the citations are present in the Kindle version, rendering it worthless for any serious study or using outlines.One wonders whether anyone at the publisher, Basic Books, bothered to read the Kindle version before releasing it.

Again, the book itself gets 5 stars, the Kindle version needs a lot of work before it's worth the money.

5-0 out of 5 stars A book that is holy
Of all those who are today recognized as great philosophers, there may only be a few who merit the title in the true sense, while the others are perhaps more accurately commentators, essayists. Not to take anything away from any of the recognized greats - recognized as great for good reason - but with the true philosophers one comes across something different, and really more, than observation, invention, or sophistication. Instead, there is an extraordinary devotion to purity, above all, and to the stripping away of noise, excess, multiplicity, and all that the truth is buried beneath. The effect is not one of shock, or revelation, or elevated character, but of fulfillment and breathtaking beauty. Among this small circle are Plato, more recently Machiavelli, and more recently still Wittgenstein. One not only reads them at great gain, but re-reads them to discover new wonders each time. And among them, Plato is arguably without rival... and his Republic is, arguably, without end.

3-0 out of 5 stars Beautiful, provocative, and potentially dangerous
First, a bit about "The Republic" itself.

Written in 380 BC, "The Republic" is one of Plato's best known, and most influential, works. It depicts a conversation between Socrates and several of his young followers about the nature of justice, political justice in particular, and what the ideal, perfectly just city or republic (the Greek word is *polis*, which invokes meanings of both community and political statehood) would actually look like.

In Socrates's view, the perfectly just polis would be founded on, and run according to, the dictates of reason. And reason, according to Socrates, dictates that for the polis to be truly just, it would need to be ruled by a philosopher-king (a man of spectacular intelligence, virtue, and vision), who, via the levers of state power and outrageous propaganda efforts, would control virtually every aspect of life within it for the common good. (In a word, the best way to describe Socrates's ideal political regime is totalitarian communism.) Thus, because family members tend to feel an allegiance to each other which sometimes conflicts with allegiance to the state, the family unit must be abolished. Private property must go. The idea that males and females are unequal in any respect must be crushed. Poetry, music, speech, and drama must be heavily censored so as to ensure they serve the state/common good. You get the picture.

In order to sell this to the masses, Plato famously proposes that a "noble lie" be perpetuated. That noble lie would be a "foundational myth", a comprehensive narrative which would make mere state action appear to be an expression of divine or cosmic right, and therefore, essentially unquestionable. From birth, citizens will be taught that the gods have mixed different proportions of gold, silver, or bronze into them. The rulers are gold people; that's why they rule. Common labourers are bronze people. In between are the silver people. And the gold people are the ones who can discern what type each person is; after they do so, each citizen will receive their proper job assignment according to how much of each metal they have.

What gives Socrates the right to recommend such drastic measures? Well, as he explains in the famous cave allegory, through reason, one can really come to know the Truth, capital T. Despite his protestations otherwise, Socrates obviously is a knower. That is, he knows what justice would look like: the ideal city he describes.

At least, that is the orthodox reading of this text. There is, as it happens, also an *unorthodox reading which requires mention here, because it is propounded in the interpretive essay included by translator Allan Bloom.

The orthodox reading takes Plato at face value: in the end, he views totalitarian communism (properly directed) as the most just regime. That's what he says, so that's what he means.

The unorthodox interpretation was developed by controversial political philosopher Leo Strauss, Bloom's mentor at the University of Chicago. According to Strauss, the great political texts tend to have a surface, or *exoteric*, meaning, but also a deeper, *esoteric* meaning inaccessible to all but the most sensitive, insightful, and virtuous readers. So in this case, viewing Socrates as a totalitarian communist is the result of a merely exoteric reading. An esoteric reading, by contrast, reveals - at least to Strauss, Bloom, and other Strauss followers - the opposite: that Socrates's entire speech was meant to be ironic - a reductio ad absurdum - and that he is, in Bloom's words (page 421), "actually engaged in a defense of democracy".

Many scholars find this reading difficult to take seriously. For one thing, an esoteric interpretation - like a typical conspiracy theory - by definition can produce little or no empirical justification for itself. A *suspicion*, or an unconscious projection, obviously is not the same as an argument constrained by the words on the paper (the proximity of this sort of approach to postmodern approaches is too obvious to elaborate; and perhaps tellingly, Straussians tend to be very sensitive about suggestions of similarity).

For another, in discussing Plato's views, Aristotle (who studied with Plato), never suggests that Plato wasn't in earnest. Moreover, in the other dialogues, Plato consistently expresses (through Socrates) admiration for Sparta, a closed, totalitarian society resembling the "just" republic advocated by him in "The Republic". Additionally, Socrates's contemporaries (like Aristophanes and Xenophon) many times make reference to Socrates's pro-Spartan sympathies; they make no intimation that there was anything "ironic" about this spartophilia. And if *this* wasn't enough, as a matter of historical fact, a number of Socrates's devout followers betrayed open, democratic Athens by helping Spartan agents organize a coup d'etat (resulting in many Athenian deaths).

So, the Straussian view that Plato, the starry-eyed admirer of Socrates, was actually an ironic, closet Jeffersonian democrat, despite championing totalitarian communism for an entire essay and defending its Spartan incarnation in several other dialogues, is a minority view. That is worth bearing in mind as you read Bloom's essay, which argues for it. (For those interested in the canonical argument against Strauss's view, look up the essay "Sphinx with a Secret", by English classicist Miles Burnyeat).

About the fidelity of Bloom's translation, I cannot say much, not knowing Greek. I do know that, to their credit, Straussians prefer the most accurate translations possible, and certainly Bloom makes clear in the preface here that literalness is his goal (but see other reviews for concerns about Bloom's skill as a translator).

So let me wrap it up.

Plato's "Republic" is an immensely thought-provoking book. Its dramatic and literary artistry is fairly magnificent. The questions it grapples with are timeless and require some sort of answer for the establishment of any regime.

But it is also deeply problematic. It contains a number of contradictions (beyond the scope of this review). It asks important questions, but leaves them unanswered, or answered in seemingly malignant ways. Yes, it is dangerous: it advocates for the destruction of individual rights in favour of total state control over every aspect of human life, in the name of achieving an abstract ideal of justice. Enough lunatics, just in the past century, have given themselves over to similar intuitions, and the results were hellish.

Bottom line is, "The Republic", like the Bible or the Koran, is a lot of things: inspiring and deflating, good and bad, safe and dangerous, virtuous and vicious. But it is probably worth a careful read at least once in your life, in any case.

Good luck. I hope this review helped someone. ... Read more


14. Ion
by Plato
Hardcover: 24 Pages (2010-05-23)
list price: US$30.95 -- used & new: US$22.43
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Asin: 1161436987
Average Customer Review: 5.0 out of 5 stars
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SOCRATES: I often envy the profession of a rhapsode, Ion; for you have always to wear fine clothes, and to look as beautiful as you can is a part of your art. Then, again, you are obliged to be continually in the company of many good poets; and especially of Homer, who is the best and most divine of them; and to understand him, and not merely learn his words by rote, is a thing greatly to be envied. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (1)

5-0 out of 5 stars For the sake of philosophy, Plato would ban poetry
I read this book for a graduate seminar on the philosophy of art.Plato in his dialogues "Ion, Symposium, and The Republic" was very concerned by the kinds of values presented in Greek poetry.By values, he meant proper and improper ways of acting, behaving, feeling, and thinking and ways of living.Plato thought poets and Homer were educating Greeks with bad values.Especially since Homeric epics were the primary vehicle used for educating the youth language and cultural notions, thus Plato hated this.This was an important battle for Plato, because of poetry's bad teachings; he was trying to contest the status of Greek poetry in the culture.

However, Aristotle says in his "Poetics," if we take a look at Greek poetry on its own terms, in terms of what it was actually doing not in terms of how we are going to approach this as poetry; then we are going to approach this as though the poetry is presenting a way of living, a way of seeing, a way of being, seriously.What this means to the philosophy of art is that this would be different from looking at art in a particular way of thinking and producing.Once that is the case, and you read the poems on their own terms, you come out with a pretty wild world, you come out with a world that is quite unusual.It is from this standpoint that Plato's critique of poetry should seem more amenable, because he was complaining about these wild and strange elements; "saying this is no way to understand human existence, there are better ways of understanding human existence."Plato wants what are familiar terms to us like justice, and rationality, self-activation taught; these concepts are not found in Greek poetry.He wants to revolutionize how human existence is seen.

Plato sees Homer as a tragic poet because heroic exploits are always matched with death and limits.The tragic conception of poetry in Plato's eyes is heavy handed and unworthy.Art was understood as a facet of culture for moderns and an engine of culture for the Greeks.Poetry was not an entertainment option for ancient Greeks; it was their cultural lens through which the Greeks understood themselves.Moreover, the reason why poetry was important was because it had religious elements in terms of stories of the Gods and heroes, and particular forces.

We shouldn't understand fate as predestination.The Greeks had a polytheistic spontaneous, fluid, ever activating religious sensibility.It was not organized by any set of doctrines or cannons, priests.It was all over the place.What is remarkable about Homer and Greek tragedy is that these stories don't make humans into puppets of the Gods.One of the reasons for this is that because of polytheism, there is no religious predestination as one would have with monotheistic Christianity or Judaism.The poetry is presenting a very unusual world where there are multiple sites of divine power causing conflicts with each other.That is why we have stories were the Gods and Goddesses are taking sides and having contests between themselves.So what did fate mean?Well, first in some respects, it meant the power of the Gods, but it didn't simply refer to the power of the Gods.It could also be generalized into a dark negative force, which was usually associated with death and catastrophe, and what is interesting in Homer is that even the Gods can't fully control or stop these things.Plato hates this conflict.No villains in Homer's Trojan War, both sides are seen to have equal nobility.No one in full control of his or her lives, they are caught up in "webs."Despite all this, a hero's noble efforts lead to death, which is the only road to fame, which provides immortality for Greeks.Homer's wonderful line, "So now let us go forth to seek glory or to concede it to others."

This does get us into interesting territory in respect to art.Two reasons for Plato's complaint about the poetry had to do with both its content and what kind of world was presented.We are presented with a world that is dark, fated, and marked by death, and that death is the end, there is no immortality.His biggest complaint of all was that good people suffer downfall.Plato in his "Republic," found this reprehensible to have as a teaching vehicle that "bad things happen to good people," Oedipus is not a flawed character, yet he is made to suffer.Plato hates this.What is good about stories of tragedy to good people?Overall picture of Greek religion is classic people are caught in this web.Plato thinks poetry has world disclosive status; this is the reason why he ultimately wants to ban poetry from Greek society.

His second complaint has to do with the more formal aspect of poetry, which had to do with how poetry was perceived in terms of its productions and reception.There are works, there are artists, and there are audiences.The Greek world was an artworld with a whole set of institutions.Greek tragedy was an artworld put on in the city as an event of religious festivals.Therefore, you have all those features in the Greek world, the works, the artists, the audience, and the artworld.Plato is also targeting things about the poets, the work of art, and the audience.Plato's complaint is that these works are not rationally based.

His "Ion" is a famous little treatise about this "Rhapsoder" (a deliverer) of Homeric poetry.It was believed in the Greek world, that poets and rhapsoders are perceived as being swept up by some sacred power or muses.Thus, poetry for Plato is not a technç (man made craft), or art because poetry for Plato is not "taught like carpentry learning the fundamentals" Poets are inspired.Maybe "divinely inspired."Power of poetry is the inspired source.Like oracles were possessed and a vehicle for that Gods communicated through.Plato identifies this as a problem.He wants rational control and reason.

Mimçsis is imitation for Greeks, one became absorbed by the performance, and the audience gets caught up in the play.For Plato, mimçsis is not just copying, but a sense of imitating but poets are giving a inferior way of living.Poetry stands in the way of pure truth so get rid of it.It damages our psyche.The "Republic" begins and ends with the problem of poetry.Poetry affects adults as well as the young.The power of poetry is that it excites the passions; we enjoy this that is the problem.Art reaches us at the level of passions, senses, physicality.Plato hates this, it is low and unfulfilling.Art is sensual, thus a problem for Socrates.Plato takes art seriously, it talks about truth and values.Plato complains that "Oedipus" is the darkest story.

I recommend this work for anyone interested in philosophy, philosophy of art, Plato, and Greek tragedy.
... Read more


15. Five Dialogues
by Plato, G. M. A. Grube
Paperback: 156 Pages (2002-10)
list price: US$6.95 -- used & new: US$4.49
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Asin: 0872206335
Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars
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The second edition of Five Dialogues presents G. M. A. Grube's distinguished translations, as revised by John Cooper for Plato, Complete Works. A number of new or expanded footnotes are also included along with an updated bibliography. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (18)

5-0 out of 5 stars Very much enlightening
I roomed with a philosophy major in my first year of college who loved to make my head spin with Plato. He'd come back from class bustling with excitement over the latest breakthrough he'd had and try to explain its significance to me, only to have it go in one ear and out the other since my priorities at the time were decidedly more down-to-earth.

Luckily, I've not been content to stay that way. It occurred to me after graduation that my education was deficient in many 'classics' - novels, poetry, history, philosophy, and so on - and that it would be to my advantage to learn them, so I sat down and made a list of things to read. Plato happened to be near the top for his influence on western philosophy. When his turn came, a friend recommended I start with the dialogues associated with Socrates' trial since they provide a solid foundation for understanding the Republic and other later Platonic dialogues.

A quick search of readily available translations yielded three candidates: Grube (Hackett), Rowe (Penguin Classics), and Jowett (too many to count). I evaluated each of them on my standard book criteria:

1) I like to think of my books as lasting investments, so I'm very keen on acid-free paper and hardcover editions.
2) I expect notes of some sort.
3) Any translations must strike a good balance between faithfulness to the text and readability, erring more to the former. No anachronisms!

The Jowett translation was by far the most abundant, likely because it's out of copyright and thus free to use. There wasn't much difference between the various editions - they were mostly paperbacks printed on cheap acidic paper without any notes. A leather-bound Easton Press edition featured superior binding and fanciful illustrations but still no notes. A Barnes and Noble Classics collection of Plato's writings had a VERY few notes, but not enough to make a difference.

The translation itself is actually very readable, which is impressive considering that it's over 100 years old, but its universal poor binding (excepting the ultra-expensive Easton Press version) and lack of notes were simply unacceptable so I decided to pass. I learned later after browsing through some forums that certain people feel Jowett is inaccurate on certain key points.

I have a love-hate relationship with Penguin Classics. I've bought quite a few paperbacks of theirs which went yellow practically overnight, which makes me angry, but at the same time I truly appreciate how they go out of their way to make things accessible to everyday readers. When I cracked open the Rowe translation, I jumped to the back of the book and was very impressed with its comprehensive endnotes. The text, too, was impressive, but in the wrong way - I literally recoiled in horror at how bone-jarringly colloquial it was. I half expected Socrates to bust out some hood lingo and give a shout out to his homies.

I'm all for making complicated material more accessible to a general audience, but I would have been so distracted at Rowe's attempts to modernize the language that I simply decided not to bother. At best, it might make a good companion to either Jowett or Grube for its notes.

I had high hopes for the Grube translation after Jowett and Rowe were such let-downs, and thankfully I wasn't disappointed. I saw from browsing through my local used book store that certain paperback copies of this are printed with acid-free paper and others aren't. I can't explain the discrepancy, so if you decide to buy the paperback version, I urge you to check with your seller of choice to make sure you're getting an acid-free copy.

Personally, I ended up picking up a used hardcover copy from a certain auction site. It doesn't say it's acid-free paper in the copyright area, but it was printed some eight years ago it's still white as snow so I'm guessing it's a good quality stock. It doesn't come with a dust jacket; it's a tough as nails "school and library" binding which has a sewn, rather than glued, binding.

Grube takes the middle ground when compared to Jowett and Rowe - the language is modern and readable without Rowe's absurd anachronisms and he provides footnotes which, while not as comprehensive as Rowe's endnotes, are entirely adequate and more convenient for their being right on the page in question. As a bonus, you get Meno, a dialogue which, while not directly relating to the trial of Socrates, is excellent for understanding the Socratic Method and thus getting a feel for why people want him dead.

I later learned from browsing through forums that Grube's translations are considered standard fare in academia. It isn't difficult for me to see why; he makes Plato accessible, modern, and dare I say it, maybe even fun. I certainly don't agree with some of Plato's conclusions, but the material in these dialogues is absolutely fascinating. I've already started using the Socratic Method to tackle questions of my own, like "what is art?"

For as little as this costs and as much as you can get out of it, you owe it to yourself to pick up a copy and expand your mind. Highly recommended.

5-0 out of 5 stars Quick and Perfect
The book was sent and arrived quick at my door in the condition stated. Thank you!

4-0 out of 5 stars Considerably Profound yet Easy to Read
The philosophies of Socrates and Plato have transcended generations for thousands of years and are still considered the foundation of all modern philosophy.Although the authenticity of even the existence of Socrates is not entirely clear, the dialogs presented by Plato offer a powerful illustration of reason and wisdom presented in an easily read format.

Socrates has a remarkable wit and sense about his demeanor; admitting full ignorance yet displaying true wisdom in his manner of questioning.The first dialog with Euthyphro exemplifies the power of clarity and simplification by how quickly Socrates is able to identify contradictory statements in Euthyphro's reasoning merely by asking questions.It is immediately obvious how profound this dialog is shown by Socrates' ability to quickly discover either truth or ignorance, and his intention will give pause to any reader.

The Apology and the dialogs with Crito and Meno all further define Socrates' thoughts on life and character encircled around his trial, conviction, and eventual death; each dialog as profound as the next.The concluding dialog with Phaedo is a discussion of Socrates' views on the afterlife, which includes a powerful rationale for his beliefs.If you seek to explore ideas regarding life and death, this dialog is essential reading.

This book is short and easily read yet contains considerable thought provoking material.Among the abundance of books available on philosophy, the Five Dialogs should be among the first for anyone with an interest in the matter.

5-0 out of 5 stars Plato - say no more.
Much more engaging and readable than the 'Republic'. 'R' is good, but this, for me, is better. It's fliud, it's even humourous at times and the whole Socratic Dialogue can really be felt in its full glory(well - that's what the title says, duh)

A must read if you're remotely interested in Socrates, ancient literature or just simply undecided where to start with philosophy.

1-0 out of 5 stars Horrible
Horrible service. After trying to contact seller and getting the same robotic response about shipping guidelines I never received the item. Could not get a hold of seller. Filed a claim. Waiting for my refund. ... Read more


16. Great Dialogues of Plato
by Plato
Paperback: 656 Pages (2008-03-04)
list price: US$6.95 -- used & new: US$3.40
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Asin: 0451530853
Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars
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"In Rouse's pages, Soctrates' strength of mind, his dedication to the philosophical truth, are borne in on the modern reader with something of the power that impressed and disturbed the ancient Greeks."--Time

"There has been no adequate translation of Plato since Jowett...and I think Rouse has done it." --Dudley Fitts

* Rouse is one of the world's most respected classical scholars ... Read more

Customer Reviews (15)

5-0 out of 5 stars Perfect for a beginner
It's probably not the best translation on the market today. But for a beginner, like myself, it's one of the best introductions to Plato, Socrates, and greek philosophy as one can get.

3-0 out of 5 stars Plato is great, but this translation is not
There is no point in trying to detract from the works of Plato themselves; anyone who is buying a collection of his dialogues is already convinced of his preeminence in Western philosophy.

This translation, however, is honestly lousy, and it surprises me how well it seems to have been received.Though I have some training in philosophy (an undergraduate degree) I'm certainly not an ancient philosophy expert, and I found no difficulty in reading Jowett, and I imagine the average reader approaching Plato would not either.Rouse's modus operandus appears to be to make Plato "accessible"--to a fault, I think.Whatever gains are made in clarity are more than countered by the awkwardness of the text and frequent anachronisms.To illustrate, here are two quotes from the first dialogue included, Ion:

"Socrates: I'm glad to hear it, Ion, for it is clear you won't mind giving me a show.

Ion: I will most certainly. You'll find it a treat to hear, Socrates, how finely I have decked out Homer! I believe I've earned a golden crown from the Homer Association."

What Rouse awkwardly translates as "Homer Association"--which sounds like a group of middle-aged men who get together every Wednesday to bowl and drink, or something--is preserved in Jowett's text as Homeridae, a group of ancient Greek Homeric scholars.How this could be confusing, especially with a simple footnote, is beyond me.

Second:

"Ion: When someone speaks about any other poet, I can't attend. I can't put in one single remark to the point, I'm just in a doze--but only mention Homer and I'm wide awake in a jiffy . . ."

The term "jiffy" is so anachronistic and silly that it really distracts the reader from the flow of the text.I cannot possibly understand why Rouse thought this was a good word to use here.

These are just some examples.All translations of Plato that I've encountered have some anachronism--Socrates quotes Latin phrases in Jowett, for example--but there is and should be a limit, and I think it's obvious that Rouse exceeds that limit.

5-0 out of 5 stars From Nietzsche to Plato... a modern view.
I have to say that Having started this after reading Kaufman's translation of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" I have an equal love for the treatment by W.H.D. Rouse in the dialogs.For a beginning philosophy student you can't really do any better than this excellent translation done in (fairly) modern english.(There's versions of this text dating from the 1950's here on amazon.)For the serious student it's an intelligent idea to read more than one translation because there will always be differences and omissions.I've also read his excellent prose treatments of Homer as well--I know some of you prefer the poetic versions, however it is more important that people read these works even if the form has changed.If you've tried reading other translations and the reading seems too dry or seems too structured, this version is done in plain, conversational english.

3-0 out of 5 stars Great collection/translation but bad print quality.
The translation and collection is admirable, but the quality of this Signet paperback I received is very cheap looking. For some reason it just seems crammed and most pages seem like they are typed in bold and others normal. Sometimes there will be a diagonal bolding of a page (like a line of bold going through from top left to bottom right) to the point where an "a" will have the entire bottom filled in. Not sure if I got a bad copy, but this isn't something I've ever noticed in a book before. This also makes some of the footnotes hard to read because they are even smaller so a "w" is all filled in and looks like an upside down triangle with the tip cut off.

5-0 out of 5 stars Good
The book was delivered fast and in excellent conditions. I recommend doing business with this member. ... Read more


17. Euthyphro
by Plato
Hardcover: 28 Pages (2010-05-23)
list price: US$30.95 -- used & new: US$22.25
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Asin: 1161430563
Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars
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Euth. I am amused, Socrates, at your making a distinction between one who is a relation and one who is not a relation; for surely the pollution is the same in either case, if you knowingly associate with the murderer when you ought to clear yourself and him by proceeding against him. The real question is whether the murdered man has been justly slain. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (2)

4-0 out of 5 stars Not Plato's Best and Perhaps Not the Best Edition but Worthwhile
"Euthyphro" is one of Plato's least important works philosophically and probably not meant as a representation of the historical Socrates, but it is still worthwhile. One should certainly read Plato's more famous works first, but those interested in him will want this, and it is a good place to begin exploring his presentation of Socrates. The fact that it is widely anthologized -- e.g., in The Trial and Death of Socrates -- makes it hard to justify a standalone, but some may be taken by the translation.

The dialogue examines the important "What is piety?" question and, like many Platonic dialogues, does not have anything like a definite conclusion. Some find this aspect frustrating, and it is certainly beguiling, but those who have experience with it come to love it. Like Socrates, Plato is after all too intelligent to give hard and fast answers; in all likelihood, he knows there are not any. What he does is far more important - lead us to think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions if we can. "Euthyphro" is a good, if relatively minor, example. It also introduces what philosophers call the Euthyphro Problem; here it is "Are good things good because they are loved by the gods, or are they loved by the gods because they are good?," but it has been restated in innumerable forms. This is in some ways an unrepresentative dialogue and thus an unfortunate one to begin the book, because it seems to prove the stereotype that philosophy obsesses over inane, probably unanswerable questions of no practical use. The Euthyphro Problem seems truly asinine as given - or, in our post-postmodern world, simply irrelevant. However, we can begin to see its importance when we replace "good" and "loved by the gods" with whatever seems most pressing. Such is after all the kind of thing Plato wanted; we are not supposed to read in narrow literal terms but use him as a starting point for our path to wisdom. This is an instructive example of how Plato has been immensely influential far beyond his apparent significance.

The ever-important translation issue must also be kept in mind. It goes without saying that anyone who cares about intellectual issues, especially applied ones, must know Plato, as should anyone who wants to be even basically well-read. However, this is far easier said than done for most; he is so different from what now passes for literature, to say nothing of pop culture, that he is virtually inaccessible to general readers. Yet the importance of persevering cannot be overemphasized; the payoff is well worth the effort. As nearly always in such cases, reading him becomes far easier after the initial difficulty; no attentive reader will ever think Plato easy reading, but he is utterly absorbing once we get used to his style. He has a near-poetic beauty that all agree has never even been remotely approached in philosophy, and such mesmerizing prose is rare in any genre. His dialogues are an incredible form at once intellectually and aesthetically pleasing - an inspired combination that has perhaps never been bettered; many have appropriated it, but none have matched it. All this means that picking the right translation is probably more important with Plato than any other writer. For the average reader, the more recent, the better is generally true, though older translations like Benjamin Jowett's and W. H. D. Rouse's are still very accessible. The important thing is to read Plato in some form, and those who happen on a translation that does not work for them should keep trying until their mind opens in a truly new way - and once done, it will never close again.

5-0 out of 5 stars About this 2007 translation of Plato
This translation of Plato's Euthyphro was undertaken in the Spring and Summer of 2007 by myself and a (now former) student, Ryan Pack.

Also available, individually, are Socrates' Defense (The Apology), and Crito and the Death Scene from Phaedo.
A "combination" file is also available, Socrates of Athens: Euthyphro, Socrates' Defense, Crito and the Death Scene from Phaedo which contains all four pieces along with a brief introduction and bibliography which is not included in any of the individual files.

Each dialogue (whether individually or in the combo file) includes the page numbers (Stephanus numbers) which have become the standard way to refer to Plato's texts.

Each dialogue is also accompanied by brief notes explaining references to Classical geography, political process, and culture.


We undertook these translations in order to replace the versions available on-line, of Jowett (from roughly 1871) andthe Loeb translation (from the nineteen-teens). (Free .pdf versions of these translations are available at the Social Science Research network, via http://ssrn.com/author=849922. Proceeds from these Amazon versions will go towards undergraduate research at Virginia Wesleyan College.) The very age of the translations makes them difficult for modern readers, and so we aspired to make our translations accessible. Here is Jowett's rendering of Apology/Socrates' Defense, 18c1-8.

"These are the accusers whom I dread; for they are the circulators of this rumor, and their hearers are too apt to fancy that speculators of this sort do not believe in the gods. And they are many, and their charges against me are of ancient date, and they made them in days when you were impressible - in childhood, or perhaps in youth - and the cause when heard went by default, for there was none to answer."

Jowett's translation is also very loose. He frequently leaves out words and whole clauses, which our translations do not.

We also tried to give the translations as much liveliness as we could given our other goals. Please see the introduction (in the combo file) for more on this.

You can view a PowerPoint presentation about the project (along with the accompanying notes) at the following page: http://facultystaff.vwc.edu/~rwoods/thinking.htm .

Finally, we would be glad to receive any corrections or suggestions for improvement you might have. These can be e-mailed to cathalwoods at gmail dot com and will be acknowledged in future editions. ... Read more


18. Republic (Oxford World's Classics)
by Plato
Paperback: 560 Pages (2008-05-15)
list price: US$9.95 -- used & new: US$6.15
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 0199535760
Average Customer Review: 5.0 out of 5 stars
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The central work of one of the West's greatestphilosophers, The Republic of Plato is a masterpiece ofinsight and feeling, the finest of the Socraticdialogues, and one of the great books of Westernculture. This new translation captures the dramaticrealism, poetic beauty, intellectual vitality, andemotional power of Plato at the height of his powers.Deftly weaving three main strands of argument into anartistic whole--the ethical and political, the aestheticand mystical, and the metaphysical--Plato explores inThe Republic the elements of the ideal community, where morality can be achieved in a balance of wisdom,courage, and restraint. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (4)

5-0 out of 5 stars An Admirable Achievement in Clarity and Directness

Among all the translators of Plato's Republic who claim that their translations are intended to be readable, Robin Waterfield seems to be the only one to have truly fulfilled the pledge. His translation has demonstrated a simple belief that Plato meant for his Greek to be as readable and fluent as in an everyday conversation and that is exactly what Mr. Waterfield is doing with his modern English --- without assuming that there is a built-in difficulty in all the classic literatures. Because, he believes, "reading Plato should be easy; understanding Plato can be difficult." A rare combination of the knowledge of classic philosophy and the writing of children's fiction to his credit must have contributed to the admirable achievement of clarity and directness.

In addition to readability, Waterfield has also made a unique contribution by abandoning the traditional "ten books" design (which was not made by Plato himself anyway) and regrouped them into "fourteen chapters" following the natural flow of the internal arguments in the texts. It is therefore only too logical for him to give each of his fourteen chapters a title and a brief introduction, not only for convenience but also to provide an overall scope of the book, which is in fact the longest and most complicated of all Plato's dialogues. Of course, he has no need to give up the standard means of reference to passages in Plato and the reader still feels quite at home with the conventional setting started as early as in 1578. To an avid reader, this new translation in Oxford World's Classics is an invaluable addition to his existing collection, large or small.

One more point deserves our special admiration. While most translators think Republic is about justice in the sense of politics more or less, Waterfield alone chooses morality for the Greek word dikaiosone, which refers to something larger than justice and that "encompasses all the various virtues and is almost synonymous with virtue in general" (Aristotle Ethics). This intrinsic quality of justice does not, however, show up to give him support until in the last two Books (IX and X), or Chapters 12-14 in our case, where the issues of happiness, or unhappiness, and immortality of the soul are brought up. At this point Waterfield needs waste no time to prove that the book title Republic is rather inadequate, if not a misnomer, for being taken directly from the Greek word politeia, which means the public life of a community and has little or no apparent relationship to the idea of republicanism as we understand it today.

5-0 out of 5 stars Good translation makes the difference
I never understood the Republic until I read this translation....there are great notes that go with the text, and the result is you really learn something.

5-0 out of 5 stars Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

5-0 out of 5 stars Good Teaching Translation
I've been using the Oxford World's Classics edition of Republic for three years now to teach freshmen, and Waterfield's translation and endnotes are great.His choice to render dikaiosyne as "morality" rather than "justice" allows a range of discussion with American students that travels outside the courtroom and into the purpose of life and what translation means, and his crankiness in the endnotes (he talks about Plato as an old lover talks about his beloved) allows some great lessons about editorial practices and what's involved in the production of a scholarly edition.

Perhaps more important to my students than anything, this edition of Plato is right at ten bucks, a steal compared to their other textbooks and an invitation to mark up, use, and abuse the margins.I'm sitting at my desk, my battered copy of the 1998 printing sitting next to my keyboard, and I'm thinking that perhaps this fall I'll pick up a copy of this blue-sky beauty. ... Read more


19. Republic
by Plato, C. D. C. Reeve
Paperback: 392 Pages (2004-09-30)
list price: US$10.95 -- used & new: US$4.00
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 0872207366
Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars
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The edition includes a select bibliography, a synopsis of each book, a glossary of terms, a glossary and index of names, and a general index. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (10)

4-0 out of 5 stars good book, though sometimes confusing
I can honestly say that the language in here is hard. It may be just me, though. Either way, some good concepts in here about universal forms and the soul being from different metals...good book. Not leisure reading, but sure is good for if you need something to STUDY...boy will you need to study..

4/5

5-0 out of 5 stars Great for newbies to Plato
I have bee intimidated to launch onto the world of the Republic - however I bought this book with the hope that I could read AND understand the book that is probably the most referenced piece in political science, philosophy, etc. I was delighted to read this book for two major reasons - 1. The translation is in easy to comprehend modern English 2. Prior to each section the author prospectively reviews and calls attention to the pertinent ideas. This is a wonderful book for new-to-the-platonic-world and maybe even for old hats.

4-0 out of 5 stars Interesting
This book was interesting. I like learning more about the ancient greek philosophies and Socrates dialogue was interesting.

5-0 out of 5 stars Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

5-0 out of 5 stars Interesting
A very interesting read. Plato gives us goon insights into how we should live our lives and interact with others. ... Read more


20. The Symposium (Penguin Classics)
by Plato
Paperback: 144 Pages (2003-04-29)
list price: US$9.00 -- used & new: US$3.94
(price subject to change: see help)
Asin: 0140449272
Average Customer Review: 4.5 out of 5 stars
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Translated with an Introduction and Notes by Christopher Gill. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

4-0 out of 5 stars Love love love
I'm not a philosophy or ancient history student, I picked up Plato's "Symposium" to challenge myself and see if I could understand it. The "Symposium" is a gathering of Greek thinkers who sit around and give speeches about love.

Phaedrus talks about the greatness of love and how those who have it achieve great things. Pausanias talks of the merits of boy/man love where the boy pleasures the man while the man passes on his wisdom to the boy and that this is the best kind of love, not the lesser lover of procreation between man and woman. Eryximachus talks about how love is the source of all happiness. Aristophanes talks about how once upon a time there was no man or woman but a single human who had both sexes' characteristics. These creatures tried to scale the heavens and so Zeus cut them in half and ever since then man and woman have sought to create that single creature again. Socrates talks about his teacher Diotima and how she taught him that love was the only way human beings could be immortal.

"The Symposium" is a short read not to be rushed as there are some fascinating ideas here. Not new ones though but ones that have influenced western culture and thought for centuries. Aristophanes' and Diotima's especially are ideas I've come across before but didn't know they originated in this text. It's also very pro-pederasty which I thought was amusing and can see why some people might have thought Plato was a closet homosexual. Those Greeks certainly were liberated though.

It's an accesible and interesting little book though this Penguin Great Ideas edition features no notes, contextual history, introduction, glossary, reading list, etc which the Penguin Classics edition does so if you're studying this text I'd get that edition rather than this one.

5-0 out of 5 stars Classic Plato
A great little book. It's a great translation and there's a lot of supplemental material here to help the reader understand the text a bit more, which is always helpful. Although as another reviewer noted, it can be hard to tell just who is speaking at any given moment. But that seems to be a common trend with all translations of Plato. All in all it's a great edition to own and great material to read.

5-0 out of 5 stars Very important, but wrong
All philosophy, yesterday's and today's, is a battle between the two ancient Greeks, Plato and his student Aristotle. Thus, people who wants to understand the world, needs to know what each of these sages is saying, what the different premises of the two men are, and what are the ramifications of what they are saying.

This is no exaggeration. Take religion as an example. Plato's approach to life affected the way the general population understand religion, while Aristotle offered the intellectuals a realistic rational view of religion. What is the difference between them?

Plato had an otherworldly non-naturalistic idea of the world. How can people define anything, how can they relate to it? There is, Plato answered, an ideal that exists outside this world. Plato never said where this ideal is located - in the mind or in heaven or floating around in the upper atmosphere. An object, he claimed, is defined by how much it is like the ideal. Thus, for example, there is an ideal table and the table on earth can be called a table if and only if it is like the ideal table.

Take love as an example. Plato's Symposium describes a drinking party where Socrates and his acquaintances try to define love. Plato is a masterful writer, and the dialogue is filled with very entertaining dissimilar ideas. However, Socrates, Plato's hero and teacher, states that true love is love that is like the ideal of love.

This is clever, but it is not informative. It seems like a joke. But it isn't a joke. People lived according to Plato's worldview and abandoned thinking during the medieval dark ages until the renaissance when individuals, at least the more educated, began to rethink and reaccept the ideas of Aristotle. Of course, even during the dark ages there were some scholars who lived as Aristotle taught, but only a handful of people.

Plato's notion of the otherworldly unnatural ideal affected many religions. People, said the clerics, must organize their lives according to ideals that are in heaven. People, they said must not think about religion on their own. Why should they think? There is only one way to think and act, and it is the ideal that is in heaven.

Aristotle had a radically different rational and natural view. He encouraged people to think. They must examine nature, experiment with it and discover the truth. A good table has nothing to do with heaven; it is an object that serves people best to eat on, work on, put objects on, etc. Love is not what matches a heavenly ideal; it is a human relationship built on respect and trust, on ability to work with another for mutual benefits.

So, too, with religion. One can if one wants believe in a divine revelation. However the revelation continues and grows as humans grow. The revelation occurs here on earth; it is not an ideal in heaven. Teachings are revealed in the events of history and in scientific experiments and advances.

Thus, Plato's views are significant, for they are the past and they are the present that should be avoided. People need to enter the world bravely, open-mindedly, think, act and grow.

5-0 out of 5 stars A wonderful read
We read this in my European Art as Politics class and it was very interesting. There is a lot of depth involved. Recommended.

5-0 out of 5 stars Fascinating ancient treatise on the nature of Love
I've read quite a few pieces of ancient Roman & Greek literature and each time I come away greatly surprised at how these 2000 to 3000-year old cultures were so similar to ours in many ways.Well, Plato's somewhat short dialogue "The Symposium" both re-affirms and counters these past impressions.

"The Symposium" investigates the nature of romantic Love.What is it?From where does it arise?What is the aim of Love?What does it accomplish?

On the one hand, this dialogue asks questions that people today still can't really answer.Modern readers should be able to relate very well to these aspects of the dialogue.It should be noted that most of the viewpoints and opinions presented through several speeches in the dialogue make some sort of sense, but only when Love is thought of as a sentient being that can influence a person's thoughts and actions.Most of us today have been schooled in science and don't perceive Love as a separate entity but rather as a mental condition springing from somewhere in the brain.But overall, the speeches are easy to relate to in the sense of scrutinizing the fundamental nature of Love.

However, where "The Symposium" evinces stark differences with modern culture is with respect to homo-eroticism.So many references are made to homosexuality (including one embarassingly revealing anecdote by Alcibiades about his lover Socrates) that if we consider Plato's work to be representative of the time, then we have to believe that many, if not most, highly educated men in ancient Athens were essentially homosexuals whose relations with their wives were limited to providing for them and fathering children by them.The most convincing support for this is in Aristophanes' and Alcibiades' speeches.

The Penguin edition consists of a superb translation by Christopher Gill.The finale to Agathon's eulogy on Love immediately struck me as remarkable and incredibly well worded, so much so that I had to read it again to admire the use of language.And then imagine my astonishment when a couple paragraphs later Socrates says about Agathon's speech: "The rest was not quite so amazing, but who could fail to be struck by the beauty of language and phrasing at the end?"Clearly, Gill nailed the translation of that passage, and I believe in general too.

A must read for fans of classics!It's short too, well under 100 pages. ... Read more


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